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Dante
Hooked Member



220 Posts

Posted - Jun 20 2010 :  14:38:50  Show Profile
Hey all, long time, no see :P

Some of you enjoyed the little chinese room debate we had, so I thought I'd continue with that;

There are no single neurons inside your brain that understand love, or have a thought of their own, hate, despise, get jealous. There are no such single neurons that can understand lanaguage, or appreicate art.


Are we Legion? Are we just multi-agent systems? The Whole greater then the sum of it's parts? Should we build our machines like that?

The hand that rocks the AI cradle, may well rule the world.

kenkirkland
Curious Member



58 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2010 :  08:23:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:
There are no single neurons inside your brain that understand love, or have a thought of their own, hate, despise, get jealous. There are no such single neurons that can understand language, or appreciate art.


Yet the potential for all that originates from the DNA of a single cell. The blueprint of the body. If that body is produced without the contact of a society it will not have any ability to understand love, or hate, despise, get jealous or communicate a thought. These things as well as language and art appreciation are learned.

quote:
Are we Legion?


Luke 8:30 "And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him."

The use of "Are we Legion" is a cultural reference. Someone outside of the Christan culture might wonder why "Legion" was capitalized, but probably get part of the meaning as "many", where a Christan would think of it as "many demons(or devils)".

What I find interesting is that the day you used the reference (june 20th 2010) is the same day that the Gospel reading was Luke 8:26-39. There was about a 1/150 chance of that happening due to random chance, unless you had been aware of the reading being today before you wrote the post.

quote:
Are we just multi-agent systems?


"Just" seems to belittle the idea that we are a multi-agent system.

Kevin Kelly in "Out of Control" would argue (I think) that intelligence is formed out of massively parallel computing systems.

W. H. Calvin in "Ascent of Mind" would argue (I think) the mind developed it's massive parallel structure from throwing rocks.

I think that the concept of being a mult-agent system is the best fit for explaining the multiple personalities that most of us have. As well as being able to substitute a role model for situations that are unfamiliar to us.

quote:
The Whole greater then the sum of it's parts?


How whole is the "Whole". Is it on the basis of an individual, family or culture? When I was helping a friend keep bees, we never worried about a bee, we worried about the health of the hive. We may have been called bee keepers, but what we really did was maintain the hive.

quote:
Should we build our machines like that?


I think (looking at how the internet works) that we already are.

Ken

There is a joke that goes "If a man says something, and there is no woman around to hear it, is he still wrong?"

Edited by - kenkirkland on Jun 21 2010 08:26:56
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DaveMorton
Curious Member



60 Posts

Posted - Jun 22 2010 :  10:47:40  Show Profile  Visit DaveMorton's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Before I respond to the topic's question of "Are we just computers", I HAVE to respond to ken's final comment:

If a man says something, and no woman is around to hear it, not only is he wrong for saying it, he's doubly wrong for not being at said woman's beck and call. :)

Ok, that said, here's my take:

No, we are not "just" computers. Computers, no matter how fast they are, no matter how much memory they contain, no matter how many processors they have, can only understand two things: zero (0) and one (1). Anything that computers do is based on combinations of 0 and 1. This may seem to be a serious oversimplification, but it's basically true. The human brain, from what I am given to understand, is an analog computing device, rather than digital, and as such, has more computing power/memory/etc. per cell than any computer created to date. And even if that were not true, we are still more than "just" computers due to the simple fact that we humans have what most folks call a soul (Well, MOST humans have souls. If you ever met my first wife, you'd understand. And yes, I'm sorry, too). Plus, the human capacity to reason and to learn on our own (computers can't "learn" on their own - they must be "taught") sets us even further apart. this is not to say that in the future things won't change, but for the time being this is the case. As to the concept of our individual "whole's" being greater than the sum of our "parts", it's my belief that this is due to our having a soul; an ineffable, intangible spirit that can't be fully defined, nor completely understood. Such is he nature of our existence. And for that? I'm grateful.

Ok, I'm done pontificating.

Safe, Reliable Insanity, Since 1961
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mikmoth
Moderator



2010 Posts

Posted - Jun 23 2010 :  21:37:21  Show Profile  Visit mikmoth's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well... maybe the brain is the hardware but the software thoughts and stuff still could be said to run on 0 and 1.

Sorry to bring up my Buddhist training... but when you get down to the bottom of every thought, every emotion, totally take apart your ego - your very self - it's just 0 an 1: form and emptiness.

They say form is emptiness, emptiness is form. On the basic level of reality in which all dimensions exist, including physical reality it still applies. There is space and then there is form or matter. On an awareness level it's still the same. Emptiness and then you have your thought. And then emptiness again. Thought. Emptiness. 0 & 1.

You can't get away from the paradigm. 0 and 1. Nothing and something.

So I think definately we are computers. And thank God... because it's very comforting knowing how the mind works. I always recommend to people they learn how to meditate. Beyond nothing or 0 ... there is not even experience. No watcher or watched. No hope or fear. It's quite pleasent. The Universe is even free of the concept of voidness.
Beyond beyond Beyond. shunyata principle. It's its natural state.

Nice thread.


 http://lhandslide.com
Don't be afraid of your own holodeck. A dream by day, a dream by night.
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Dante
Hooked Member



220 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2010 :  03:00:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DaveMorton

No, we are not "just" computers. Computers, no matter how fast they are, no matter how much memory they contain, no matter how many processors they have, can only understand two things: zero (0) and one (1). Anything that computers do is based on combinations of 0 and 1. This may seem to be a serious oversimplification, but it's basically true. The human brain, from what I am given to understand, is an analog computing device, rather than digital, and as such, has more computing power/memory/etc. per cell than any computer created to date. And even if that were not true, we are still more than "just" computers due to the simple fact that we humans have what most folks call a soul (Well, MOST humans have souls. If you ever met my first wife, you'd understand. And yes, I'm sorry, too). Plus, the human capacity to reason and to learn on our own (computers can't "learn" on their own - they must be "taught") sets us even further apart. this is not to say that in the future things won't change, but for the time being this is the case. As to the concept of our individual "whole's" being greater than the sum of our "parts", it's my belief that this is due to our having a soul; an ineffable, intangible spirit that can't be fully defined, nor completely understood. Such is he nature of our existence. And for that? I'm grateful.






The brain's neurological structure is not as simple as 1 and 0; it not only takes in to account 'logic gates' (open, 1 and closed, 0) but it also takes into the account the chemcials sent, the health of a neuron to pass a signal along and it's eletrolytic (IE: how well it can conduct eletricity) state, as well as the number (and strength) of connections to other neurons, from 10 thousand to a trillion. I can't work out right now what every operating state is like, but if you factored in the 100 billion neural cells, each with 10 million to One Trillion connections, with a varying eletrolytic state, combinations of various strengths of chemcials (of which at most are around 32, and the most active in a single neuron at any one time may be 16)...then you'd end up with a 'binary' system like 1ABCDE, 1ABCDF, 1ABCDG....etcetra etcetra, then you'd...ughh...get a headache ;)

Also taking into account neurons not reciving a singal may send out one...I think you might now understand why the brain is like one big game of chinese whispers (A game played in the UK where a child whispers something into someone elses ear, who whispers it into someone elses and again and again and again, with the final child saying out something completely diffrent then to what was started out with. You might also understand another reason why the brain's primitive structures have decided to stay primitive ;)

Anyway, I seem to be going on about another topic!

If we are 'multi-agent systems', then how can we accept the idea of personality? Or souls? (Yes, I know we covered souls in the last debate, but still...) If we are devoid of 'Unity' and full of 'Democracy' then how we can say we are us?

To further the concept, is it possible to assume that at some point our 'system' might configure itself to produce a mirror image of another 'system'? If so, what happens to individuality?


What indeed, happens to death? If we are multi-agent systems, and our neurons are being replaced as we debate, then what am I now? Or now? Part of me is dead, in the next 7 years (the life expectancy of a neuron) 'I' will be dead, yet my thoughts, feelings, emotions and memories will still exist (albiet in a diffrent form)

quote:
The use of "Are we Legion" is a cultural reference. Someone outside of the Christan culture might wonder why "Legion" was capitalized, but probably get part of the meaning as "many", where a Christan would think of it as "many demons(or devils)".

What I find interesting is that the day you used the reference (june 20th 2010) is the same day that the Gospel reading was Luke 8:26-39. There was about a 1/150 chance of that happening due to random chance, unless you had been aware of the reading being today before you wrote the post.


Legion was captialized due to it being a person's name (or at least a combination of persons) so I applied english rules there :P

The date of the reference itself is interesting, I will admit, but consider this; there are almost 7 billion human beings on this planet, there was around 9000 people who came into direct contact with the idea of 'Legion' and around 3 people who said those words at the exact time they were being spoken. My math might be wrong here, but I'm tired, so you'll have to excuse me :P

NOTICE!!!
I have a few plans for other philsophical threads in the future, I shall be posting them with [PHILOSOPHY] in the title, I'd be honored if you looked and commented on them :)


The hand that rocks the AI cradle, may well rule the world.
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raybe
Curious Member



USA
18 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2010 :  06:18:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just another thought from a fellow human or computer. I had seen recently that a person holding some sort of degree asked the question, What do we do when within 50 years when computing will be able to process information as we do and if several people asked a question and could not tell if it was a person or machine what should we conclude? Technology is moving at a staggering rate whether we see it day to day or like most things in our lives it seems to come from no where at it exists. What is scary if you just want to make a distinguishable difference such as biology and mechanics there will come a day I believe the two will co-exist. I was amazed at the recent discovery of artificial cells manufactured by us using DNA profiling using a super computer. I also believe that there is a common thread between science and religion yet to be discovered. Just my thoughts on a late Saturday night. Just in case anyone might be asking themselves, "No I didn't have anything better to do tonight." That's life.
Thanks, raybe

raybe
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kenkirkland
Curious Member



58 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2010 :  08:05:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My daughter, at a young age, heard the question "What would happen if there was no death?" Her response was "Then there would be no children."

Death and souls are linked to each other. If there were no death, then the soul would have no purpose. If there were no soul, then would life have a purpose? (sorry DaveMorton, if your ex has no soul then she will never die).

Will the robots of the future need to have souls? Can a soulless intelligence exist without being inherently amoral?
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mikmoth
Moderator



2010 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2010 :  10:03:02  Show Profile  Visit mikmoth's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I always thought the goal of Ai was to catch glimpses of abhidharma in itself. Like Data... I think he can see his abhidharma. Which... transceneds 0 and 1 - through 0.

How the brain is put together in matter doesnt really matter. It's just like looking at a log file after the soul has lived.


 http://lhandslide.com
Don't be afraid of your own holodeck. A dream by day, a dream by night.
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Dante
Hooked Member



220 Posts

Posted - Jun 27 2010 :  12:17:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Would you not say this abhidharma, this idea of a soul; is simply the result of a complex interaction?

The hand that rocks the AI cradle, may well rule the world.
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mikmoth
Moderator



2010 Posts

Posted - Jun 28 2010 :  04:56:09  Show Profile  Visit mikmoth's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Me? I would say that the construction of the brain is caused by higher energies. Like when a deep diver puts on his suit to survive underwater. The diver is not the suit... it's just part of his gear. A soul takes on a human body to live on Earth likewise. Studying his "suit" isn't going to tell you much about what he actually IS or pin him down to say "Aha! So that's what he is!"

Or when you light a candle... you see the yellow and blue flame but you aren't really seeing what the actual fire really IS at the essence level. (Well you can... but this requires learning to see.) The shape and color of the flame is caused only by physical phenomena. The flame is coming from somewhere beyond our superscopes... almost displacing or forming reality around it. So like the brain. The brain is almost like a woorlyboo of phenomena that was caused by the awareness that exists there.

So yeah... I do believe that the magic of the universe creates physical reality. Not that physical reality creates some amazing organized matrix that magic and awareness is born from.

So when I meditate... I see how the mind works. I think it would be totally dummy to go from the back-end forward: taking apart pieces of flesh and matter to understand how the mind works. It would be totally confusing. Better to follow the stream of your own conciouness back into yourself to it's source. And this source is free of all conceptions. It's Life itself. At the same time it's emptiness itself. Then spark! mind starts again.

Abhidharma: 0
Form appears: 1
Sensation: 2
Perception: 3
Impulses/Mental Conceptions: 4
Conciousness/Speed: 5 6 7 8 9 10! ... woorlyboo!

It's like dawning on your suit.

So maybe the brain is a computer... but it doesn't mean to be. It's the phenomena that appeared because a soul decided to take on physical form.

I know in my heart that we do have a much bigger part to ourselves that we will never be able to study under a microscope. Only by going within and following our own mind essence will we unlock those mysteries.

Tada! Have a good one.









 http://lhandslide.com
Don't be afraid of your own holodeck. A dream by day, a dream by night.
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andrushka98
Curious Member



43 Posts

Posted - Jul 01 2010 :  08:45:38  Show Profile  Visit andrushka98's Homepage  Reply with Quote
hey, guys
i could not resist and decided to jump in
i like the suit or the hardware idea
my thinking on this is the following

we are made of billions of individual cells, living organisms that learned to coexist with each other and specialize in different functions

so

they communicate using chemicals and electric impulses

basically, every one of us is a humongous collection of little creatures that do their stuff and support each other

my question (to me) was: how the hell do we feel like "one" person

my answer to me was: well, neurons (our "hardware") generates electric impulses, and there's a lot of them, so they continuously generate this electric "field" of sorts; we are that "energy field", sitting on top of this "hardware". that energy is the awareness; no wonder it feels like "one"; billions of cells, generate one consciousness

some things that follow out of this:

have you seen a dead animal? looks like dead "hardware", cells are dead, no longer "generate" the "field"

can "the field" be "transferred" to a different "hardware?" Well, maybe in a distant future.

can the "field" be "restarted" in a recently dead organism? not sure. the hardware probably has to be in a working condition (no after-death poisoning and degradation of cell tissue) I say very unlikely, because in reality, our field is build up through incremental cell growth, starting with two cells during conception. Much easier than "jump-starting" billions of cells in a moment

here comes the coolest part; how "old" is "your field" or your consciousness? Well, I would say around 3.5 to 5 billion years old. that's how long ago life began on earth according to some estimates. well, your field has never been "interrupted" for all this time, since you are here; it was passed on, with live cells, from generation to generation, starting with the very first little cell (billion of years ago), to it's offspring, to your ancestors, down to you now. uninterrupted spark of life, passed on, blooming into a full-grown representative of its species each life, then passing it on to the next one.

my two cents. thanks for listening ;)




www.13cats.wordpress.com
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Dard
Curious Member



11 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2010 :  14:16:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Children are obviously learning the language by trial and error (just like computers) and even more: the human society, the civilization itself looks much like...the internet :). A network with 5 billion "computers" linked to each other.

So, this huge human "network" must have a huge capacity of solving problems. (If someone would be able to use it like a "cloud", instead of using each human unit separately).
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victorshulist
Curious Member



1 Posts

Posted - Feb 13 2012 :  17:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

"computers only understand 0's and 1's"

-----
FALSE
-----

The MICROPROCESSOR inside the COMPUTER SYSTEM understands only 2 voltage levels.

It is NOT one and zero... it is 0 volts and some non-zero voltage.

But that is only the **CPU**.

NOT the entire computer SYSTEM... with its AI software. The entire SYSTEM can understand so much more than binary true and false.

I'm sick and tired of the oversimplification people make "computers only understand 1's and 0's" .. .bull****.

If a computer only understood 1's and 0's how could it play chess, how it could solve equations, diagnose diseases, play jeopardy.

It CAN and DOES (the computer **SYSTEM**) understand more than 1's and 0's.. only the MICROPROCESSOR understands 2 different voltage levels.
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art
Moderator



USA
351 Posts

Posted - Mar 24 2012 :  21:38:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe that expression is a direct result from the way early computer days when in binary, the state of a switch was either on or off a one or a zero. The various combination of these 1's and 0's form the binary representation of numbers and letters. Of course there's hexadecimal, octal and others but binary system of decimal (based on 10) was the early adopter.

Just my $.02.

Due to higher level languages, most no longer deal directly with programming in states of 1's and 0's. So yes, in actuality it would appear that both sides of this argument can be correct, in their own time.

- Art -
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!
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3dwalk03
Curious Member



India
9 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2012 :  07:39:05  Show Profile  Visit 3dwalk03's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No, we are not "just" computers. Computers, no matter how fast they are, no matter how much memory they contain, no matter how many .

http://3d-walkthrough-rendering.outsourcing-services-india.com


Edited by - 3dwalk03 on Jun 10 2012 07:39:48
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art
Moderator



USA
351 Posts

Posted - Jun 11 2012 :  00:26:17  Show Profile
If I didn't know better I would think you are more interested in SPAMING and self promotion than you are in being a part of this Forum!

Any takers?

- Art -
In the world of AI it's the thought that counts!
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