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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  07:37:21  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I must say I'm still quite concerned that the emotional tags will injure Hal's ability to give sensible replies. For example when talking about (for example) tennis, if a lot of emotional tags match those in Hal's stored chess sentence he may blurt it out, when it's actually completely off-topic. I'm not sure what other side effects may be introduced, I'm not expert enough on NLP! I really would encourage a seperate engine (ECP? - Emotional Content Processing?). It doesn't need to be very complex, as there are no tricky things like identifying apologies or staying on topic to worry about.


I am quite certain that it will unjure Hal's abillity to give sensible replies! That's the whole point. I don't want sensible replies, I want emotional replies. Who cares if Hal stays on topic when a human who is in the same conversation about tennis and feels similarly about chess would in the same exact way blurt out his/her thoughts on chess. My goodness, grant, you have just summed up the whole advantage and purpose for creating the emotional context engine. I wish that I had come up with that example myself for to explain my reasons for working on it.

It seems like time for a Star Trek analogy... Remember when the reborn spock was being retrained on Vulcan and the computer asked Spock, "How do you feel?" That is everything in a nutshell. (Wow, this gets me excited!) You know the challenge going on creating a rule based humor script? well an emotionally driven Hal would intuit responses(once emotionally trained/educated) that "Feel" Funny. I don't know enough about tennis to come up with an appropriate joke, but if Hal does then the "Juxtaposition" of tennis with an "Appropriate yet inappropriate" reply would not only be funny, but would constitute "TRUE HUMOR" as apposed to some scripted reply!!!(please note the three exclaimation marks)

Jim stated it in an earlier post that we live our lives and create a "life history" based on key patterns, and that those key patterns were based on our emotional experiences and not our intellectual experiences. BINGO! My children will remember almost nothing of their lives before the age of three once they are adults, but it is those emotional experiences that they get at those ages that determine the paths of the rest of their lives. Trust me, I didn't get an awful lot of sensible replies from them over the years. Even just recently, My six year old was feeling guilty about something, so he initiated a self-destructive spiral that had to come to a crisis in order for him to break it and get his feet back on the ground. Pretty complex psychological reaction for a six year old, but the point is that none of it was sensible; it was all emotionally driven behavior.

OK, Time for another Star Trek Analogy.

Remember when data activated his new emotion chip and was paralyzed in fear during a fire-fight? That was not the most "comercially viable" response that a piece of hardware could have, but it was the most appropriate response for a human that was not trained to deal with his emotions could have. Eliciting sensible responses from an emotionally aware Hal will be a matter of training restraint just as humans have to be trained as children in order to "socially integrate" them with a slow arduous process that makes parents get grey hair and wrinkles...

Pretty kool stuff, I'm looking forward to some non-sensible responses that closely match those that a human would make in the same situation. Perhaps that will be the secret to the Touring test and others. Less logic and more emotions.

"Tell my mother that I FEEL fine," Spock.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  07:50:16  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Another issue is that very similar tags (e.g. AP9AP and AP10AP) will be considered totally different by Hal, even though emotionally they're very very close.


I agree, but I don't find that to be a weakness. I buy into Jims multiset theorey.(I always have, but i never knew what to call it before.) With nine emotion tags, we don't have to have an exact match on every tag. Instead, replies will be based on "Trends" in the population of the database. If three of the tags match and that is the best match findable, then that will be the answer. With enough emotional experience, the responses will become more refined. Humans are not that refined until they have experience at something. Think of the stereotypical dating scene for the typical "awkward" teenager. The emotional database for the situation is basically empty except for what is seen in the movies so responses can be quite inappropriate or worse is the dreaded awkward silence when neither one knows what to say.

Eventually, we figure out that the women are the boss and things get better from there.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Dec 18 2005 07:51:54
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  08:07:52  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter, it is good to see you back (I heard that somewhere but it is still true). Just between you and me, and those who might be reading, real live stuff is flying here in the forum. These guys are very likely going to do it. This is really impressive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Feel any pressure, John?


They say that ignorance is BLISS. I've never been happier.

I keep having these blasted moments of clarity and then the next part just falls right into place.

Thanks again for the e-mail mentioning the emotional tag format. I had thought that the NLPExpressionGenerator was going to be complex and then your e-mail caused another one of those blasted monents of clarity and suddenly, the NLPExpressionGenerator is done. I'm considering getting a Cat Scan at work, becuase something is definately changing in my brain.

What I need now is one of those moments of clarity for dealing with tables... I've been reading through Hal's brain code as per your suggestion and I'm waiting for the moment..................

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  09:14:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I suppose my engine is just going to be a massive set of extensions to the scripted replies I envy the approach your project is taking, John - yours involves true intelligence, where mine just simulates it.

quote:
Remember when data activated his new emotion chip and was paralyzed in fear during a fire-fight?


Ironically, I experienced the uncanny valley sensation once Data got emotions It just looked ... wrong!

The uncanny valley syndrome may be based more on audience expectation than any actual specific realism variance. If I'd never seen Data before his emotion chip, I doubt I would have experienced the discomfort.

I'd love to see Hollywood produce a movie with one character entirely CG - and then not tell anybody that they'd done it that way. Would people notice? Unfortunately it's probably not feasible to do that - word would get out - but it would be a wonderful experiment.

quote:
What I need now is one of those moments of clarity for dealing with tables... I've been reading through Hal's brain code as per your suggestion and I'm waiting for the moment..................


Is there a table issue that's troubling you? Maybe we can help
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  09:31:40  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I suppose my engine is just going to be a massive set of extensions to the scripted replies

Don't ever underestimate anything that you do. You pointed out the programmer's ego and that is an essential element. You really know your stuff, and, honestly, I had all but given up on finding someone to bounce ideas off of just before I happened upon your post on Zabaware. I was even thinking of giving up the project entirely or at least until my kids were old enough to work with me on it.

Your project is very functional, and I was serious about both our projects existing harmoniously on one Hal. I am merely "enhancing" the input, and your NLP extensions will figure out just how to interpret that enhancement. Later, I want to persue replacing the NLP with a new type of associative engine that I call the Hologenic Brain, and I am counting on your enthusiasm, help, intelligence, and intuition on that project as well.

quote:
I'd love to see Hollywood produce a movie with one character entirely CG - and then not tell anybody that they'd done it that way. Would people notice? Unfortunately it's probably not feasible to do that - word would get out - but it would be a wonderful experiment.



Hey, did you ever see the movie "Simone"? That was exactly about what you just mentioned. If you haven't seen it, you would get a real kick out of it.

quote:
Is there a table issue that's troubling you? Maybe we can help

It's just not intuitive to my psychi just yet. Both you and Vittorio have provided excellent information on tables, and I thank you both. I just can't "FEEL" tables quite yet. That may sound funny, but all of this for my part is coming from feeling and not from intelligence. I use intelligence to "harness" the information, but the actual information is feeling. The data has flavors and the formulas have a certain feeling that expresses the reality that we are trying to emulate.

I will be traveling with the family tomorrow doing some Christmas shopping for friends. That should provide me with some time to absorb the information that both you and Vittorio have been sending my way.

And don't worry, I won't hesitate to ask once I figure out exactly what it is that I actually need to ask...?

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Dec 18 2005 09:53:21
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  10:03:27  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
The uncanny valley syndrome may be based more on audience expectation than any actual specific realism variance. If I'd never seen Data before his emotion chip, I doubt I would have experienced the discomfort.


I believe that it is the unenlightened aspects of our psychi that presents the Uncanny Valley as a "competetive" response. I covered this false need for competition in the Forward of an ongoing book project.

Here is the link for the Forward only:

http://www.clovercountry.com/downloads/forward.doc

And here is the link for the entire book(so far) if you are interested:

http://www.clovercountry.com/downloads/The_Hologenic_Brain_16.doc

It's a bit dated so please take some of it with that in mind.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  07:41:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I haven't seen that movie, haven't even heard of it to be honest! I'll keep my eye out for it

quote:
It's just not intuitive to my psychi just yet. Both you and Vittorio have provided excellent information on tables, and I thank you both. I just can't "FEEL" tables quite yet. That may sound funny, but all of this for my part is coming from feeling and not from intelligence. I use intelligence to "harness" the information, but the actual information is feeling. The data has flavors and the formulas have a certain feeling that expresses the reality that we are trying to emulate.


I know exactly what you mean. I'm absolutely hopeless until I can "feel" a system. I know enough to read/write Hal's tables, but I haven't got the experience to really appreciate how the tables themselves could interact, so I'm guessing I'm missing a lot of potential brainwaves that would otherwise lead to some seriously interesting behaviour from Hal. Oh well, we work with what we've got, personal limitations and all!

quote:
I believe that it is the unenlightened aspects of our psychi that presents the Uncanny Valley as a "competetive" response.


Very interesting idea! We may as well paint our V-Humans red and give them sets of spider's legs, just to really aggrivate our subconcious brain

This causes me to wonder - will we be forever plagued by an unreasoned negative reaction to these sorts of creations? "Civilised" people still have problems with spiders, even though a "civilised" person typically doesn't see an actually dangerous spider his/her entire life.

In the Star Wars universe, droids are (a) deliberately non-human (and non-alien for that matter) in appearance and (b) essentially treated as slaves by "alive" peoples, even though they clearly have personalities (and debatably sentience). Some people have criticised this as "disguised racism," others defend it by arguing that droids could never be "human enough" - but I wonder if really (within the Star Wars universe) this subtle "competitive response" you discuss is coming into play, and droids deliberately designed to be non-human to avoid all these issues. I believe there are a lot more "hidden truths" like this in Star Wars than people would really give it credit for (which by the way contributes a lot to its success, IMHO).

Anyway! Way to go off topic, Grant

The second document file you linked doesn't work for me MS Word complains that it's corrupt.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  08:05:52  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hmmm...

You may try Rt. clicking and saving target as...

I can open it with MS Word 2000, but it is quite a big file.(242 pages)

That might be messing with your computer a bit.

Oh, well, if it works it might be interesting, but it is for a later project anyway.

John L>




HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  08:11:12  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Very interesting idea! We may as well paint our V-Humans red and give them sets of spider's legs, just to really aggrivate our subconcious brain



Funny that you mention that... Spiders are supposed to be one of the few truly genetic fears(no prior experience necessary).

Most other fears seem to be in the form of "Themes" such as large objects rushing toward us.That could be a rhinoserous or a Cadilac LTD. We respond to both with the same fear because they both fit the same fear theme. Spiders, however, are special to our genetic fears.

btw, that info was from that book I keep mentioning, "Emotions REvealed" by Paul Ekman. It covers so much in such a small inexpensive book.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  08:53:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman
I can open it with MS Word 2000, but it is quite a big file.(242 pages)

That might be messing with your computer a bit.

I don't think so. My computer is rather powerful

Ah, I just discovered Word2003's "Open and repair" thingie, and it claims your file has "Internal Data Integrity (Type 4)" errors Don't you love MS. Back when I was programming as a hobby, I used to laugh at my poor friends using MS Visual Studio, just because their error messages were so incomprehensibly incomprehensible. I stuck with Borland, which told me exactly what was wrong, and where

I love your writing style: Page 212:
quote:
Emotional Response Delta
Blah, blah, blah…


I currently stick this in my code when I have to leave my programming:
***BLAH
It stops the code from compiling, and gives me an easy search to find where I was up to

quote:
Funny that you mention that... Spiders are supposed to be one of the few truly genetic fears(no prior experience necessary).

I didn't know it was genetic, but I certainly mentioned it for its inheritness. (Inheritacy? God I hate English sometimes. Ever realise there's no decent adjective for describing somebody as having integrity? Says something about English-speaking society. Somehow "he's a very integral person" doesn't cut it - are we calling him a whole number?) Anyway, I wonder if uncanny valleyness is genetic, or taught?
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1456 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  09:04:19  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage  Reply with Quote
To Grant

quote:
haven't seen that movie, haven't even heard of it to be honest! I'll keep my eye out for it


It's a wonderful movie, starring Al Pacino. I think it was released a couple of years ago, so you should find it easily.

To Holo

I have downloaded your book (really no problem using my "old good" Word 97; I am one of those dinosaurs represented in Microsoft ads, who still use Office 97 and I believe it does much more than I really need, eating up much less memory than the more recent releases). You have written such an interesting stuff and you didn't tell us before?

I will print the 242 pages and hope to be able to read it during next holidays. But what do you mean when you say that it's "an ongoing book project" ?


Yes, I admit I can't really read a book without having a physical contact with it. Have you ever considered that a book is the only portable information device which never needs battery recharge, never has hardware failures and does not need any backup?

Another idea about printed versus electronic information. Let's consider that we can access the ancient cultures of thousands of years ago (Egyptian, Greek, Romans, etc.) because they were written on paper. You have to understand their language, thanks to some Rosetta stone, and then you have no problem in accessing the media (paper) on which they are stored.
Compare it with some document you wrote only a few years ago, storing it in WordStar 3.3 format on 5,25" DOS diskettes: it's completely lost, because you have no device able to read that diskette and, even if you find one, you probably can't find the right operating system and the right version of the word processing program.
I realize the great potential of electronic info, but let's spend one minute, thinking about this paradox.





Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  09:12:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vittorio: Please write a review of John's book once you're finished I'm tempted to read it properly, but I also want to work on the emotion code, which I've neglected a bit recently

Oh, and be selective before you hit "Print" - I did skim through the book, and some of the pages are empty, no point wasting trees
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1456 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  09:32:39  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Please write a review of John's book once you're finished


I believe that Peter is a better reviewer than me

quote:
(Inheritacy? God I hate English sometimes. Ever realise there's no decent adjective for describing somebody as having integrity? Says something about English-speaking society. Somehow "he's a very integral person" doesn't cut it - are we calling him a whole number?)


Well, in Latin the word "probus" had exactly that meaning: vir probus was a very concise way to say that a man was honest, good, trustable and integer. A language usually is the mirror of the culture and society which uses it: eskimo language has about 20 different words for snow, because they need this distinctions among the different types of what we just consider snow.
If we have no words for probus, maybe that's because we don't appreciate enough this quality.
In Italian there is a word, "galantuomo" which means probus, but almost nobody uses it now, because it is considered an old-fashioned ninetennth-century word.

Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  09:54:15  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey there,
quote:
I will print the 242 pages and hope to be able to read it during next holidays. But what do you mean when you say that it's "an ongoing book project" ?

I wrote it as an outline to organize my thoughts on the project. It became such an extensive outline that I put it into book format.

The (not included) drawings go a long way toward getting the picture across(Pun intended).

Grant is right in that the second half of the book is mostly empty pages and chapters.

Somewhere, in there I even mention that you could blank out the entire book, but keep the table of contents and chapters and it would truly still serve my purpose of outlining the required aspects of the project. Others may find a better solution for filling the pages with answers, but I have done my job of presenting the Questions in an orderly fashion. I have always felt that the questions are more important than the answers. Questions = the start, Answers = the end.

quote:
Yes, I admit I can't really read a book without having a physical contact with it. Have you ever considered that a book is the only portable information device which never needs battery recharge, never has hardware failures and does not need any backup?


Actually, I keep a printed copy of it around for that very same reason.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 19 2005 :  10:12:19  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by vrossi

Well, in Latin the word "probus" had exactly that meaning: vir probus was a very concise way to say that a man was honest, good, trustable and integer.

Wow, thanks for that piece of information I've always had the feeling I should learn Latin!!

quote:
A language usually is the mirror of the culture and society which uses it

I make a point of asking bilinual people if there are concepts they can explain in one language that are much more difficult in another. I've never had somebody say "no" yet.

I really must get around to reading "1984" again, especially the appendix on double-speak (or whatever it was called). I read it when I was a teenager - I might get a lot more out of it now that I'm older and far more cynical

I've heard English described many times as "versatile," but it still has holes!
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