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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  08:39:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Spoooky
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  08:56:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jim!

I felt similarly the first time I was introduced to John's ideas But it's been fun to throw ideas around, and it's given me some inspiration for my own (comparitively minor) project

Did you have a fourth aspect in mind?
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  09:03:50  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I felt similarly the first time I was introduced to John's ideas But it's been fun to throw ideas around, and it's given me some inspiration for my own (comparitively minor) project


I'm embarrased.

I'm fast approaching the I'd better put-up or shut-up point...

However, the embarassment factor does keep me plugin' away at this [explitive] code.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  09:41:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL
I was approaching the same point until you came along Took all the heat off me! Just kidding

(Actually I'm still there - compared to the plans I've outlined, all I've really shown for it is a script that plays haps....)

I'm glad of the forums as far as motivation goes - I normally end up looking up some obscure detail in the brain editor - and since I've opened it up, I may as well work a little

How is the coding going?
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  10:10:25  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've got the coding for the emotionEngine(from spread sheet) Nailed.

The next step(formulas for the hormoneInterface) is not going to be that bad.

Creating tables is a mystery. and I need to find a way to keep my variables through persuant calls of the GetResponse function. Perhaps that is what the tables are for...

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  11:44:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[Snip!] I nearly typed a huge technical answer, but then remembered this is the wrong place for that! I hope your email address is stored in your settings properly, I just sent the long technical answer through the "email" function of this forum

My fault, I shouldn't have asked
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1455 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  13:41:47  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi, Grant

quote:
[Snip!] I nearly typed a huge technical answer, but then remembered this is the wrong place for that! I hope your email address is stored in your settings properly, I just sent the long technical answer through the "email" function of this forum


This is the right place for every discussion and information which can be useful to our goals.

Some days ago I read this very interesting topic by Holo on the Zabaware forum, and I asked him to transfer here at least the conceptual aspects, leaving the technical ones in the Zabaware forum, just because I didn't want to "steal" an interesting topic from that forum, not because we can't discuss technical aspects here.

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. Please help me if sometimes my English is not clear.

So, unless you have something really private that requires a personal e-mail, I would be happy to find here also many technical analysis. Or, if you have some software source coding, you can add it to the Software download section, which currently contains only my Hal plugins.

Thanks


To Holo:

I'm sure that Grant has already answered your questions about SQL tables in Hal. Anyway, if you look at my plugins, you will find some simple example about creating and populating some tables.

Bye

Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  17:42:25  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Vittorio,

Thanks for the clarification on the technical stuff.

In truth, this is probably enhancing the Zabaware posting since the ideas seem to be flowing through forums with even less resistance...

Grant, If you would like to post it, I'm sure your e-mail would be useful to anyone tinkering in the UltraHal Brain.

Vittorio, I'll definately check out your plug-ins. SQL, text handling, and to some extent functions and subroutines are new to me so I am trying to come up to speed on how to take the biggest advantage of them.

My strengths are in extracting formulas and in organization. My weaknesses are becoming more evident, but I love a challenge.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Dec 14 2005 17:47:53
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2005 :  19:15:40  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Vittorio,

May I borrow (and adapt) your copyright disclaimer for use on my code. It seems pretty much like it covers the bases pretty well.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1455 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  00:04:51  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Holo,
quote:
May I borrow (and adapt) your copyright disclaimer for use on my code. It seems pretty much like it covers the bases pretty well.

I wrote my Disclaimer, looking around for some other similar texts in free software, and then assembling it all, according to my needs.

So, you can copy from it, as I copied from others.

Remember that I'm a software developer, not a lawyer: so I can't assure you that it is formally correct and covers all the possible options.



quote:
SQL, text handling, and to some extent functions and subroutines are new to me so I am trying to come up to speed on how to take the biggest advantage of them.
My strengths are in extracting formulas and in organization.


I've been working for 30 years (yes, I'm very old ) in the enterprise software area, so I have got some experience in databases and software development, using environments which are much more complex than VBScript. But only now I am approaching psychology, robotics and other issues related with VH.

So I'm new to Maslow's needs triangle as you are to SQL.

Lets' help each other, when needed. I believe that "sinergy" is the right definition.


If you want a reference guide to VBScript, go to http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnanchor/html/scriptinga.asp

If you want a relatively simple introduction to SQL, you can go to http://www.sqlite.org/ SQLLite is the free version of SQL, used by Zabaware in the new Hal 6. It has some technical limits, but offers many of the features available in the "serious" SQL DBMS, like Oracle or DB2. So what you learn here is needed for working with Hal but it's also useful for any other database implementation of higher level.





Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  04:11:25  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I wrote my Disclaimer, looking around for some other similar texts in free software, and then assembling it all, according to my needs.

So, you can copy from it, as I copied from others.


I appreciate that. I'll put it in my Plugin-in-process and get it posted in the download section so that we can see the progress(there's optimism for ya') as it happens.

quote:
So I'm new to Maslow's needs triangle as you are to SQL.

Lets' help each other, when needed. I believe that "sinergy" is the right definition.


I can't begin to express how intellectually and emotionally rewarding this experience is for me. I've had this project brewing for so long that I am truly amazed to see it growing into reallity. Any way or any thing that I can do to help, I am delighted to do.

By the way, has peter been peeking in on us from time to time? He has such a wealth of insight and background in this field, that we all benefit when he contributes. He has been a guiding force in this field and a source of direction in this melting pot of technologies and disciplines.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  09:19:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi!

This place has been busy while I've been sleeping and working! I'm soooo looking forward to the Christmas holiday!
quote:
Originally posted by vrossi
Some days ago I read this very interesting topic by Holo on the Zabaware forum, and I asked him to transfer here at least the conceptual aspects, leaving the technical ones in the Zabaware forum, just because I didn't want to "steal" an interesting topic from that forum, not because we can't discuss technical aspects here.

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. Please help me if sometimes my English is not clear.
No no Vittorio, my fault, it was me who was unclear - when I said "technical," I meant my answer was only referring to the details of storing variables/tables in Hal, and wasn't really about V-Humans at all.

I don't even have a copy of the email now, because it was sent through this website. Basically it was just about using EncodeVar in Hal, and creating/adding to tables. If anyone wants more info, ask
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman
Vittorio, I'll definately check out your plug-ins. SQL, text handling, and to some extent functions and subroutines are new to me so I am trying to come up to speed on how to take the biggest advantage of them.
SQL is well and truly new to me, but from what I've seen (still very little) it's not too bad to use One of the big hurdles will be finding the commands within Hal, and some of the tokens, e.g. the names of fields of different types of tables. Still, as you say, it's a challenge

I have a wee bit of programming experience, including a wee bit in VB, so I'll help wherever I can!
Oh, you guys have just reminded me that I haven't put a disclaimer in my code. *sigh* Ok.
'DISCLAIMER
'I just typed a bunch of letters. If it breaks something, it's your fault.
quote:
Originally posted by vrossi
Lets' help each other, when needed. I believe that "sinergy" is the right definition.
I'll drink to that!

I guess it's my turn to give my background I started computer programming at the age of 8, ended up studying engineering at university - and completely surprised everybody I know by quitting before graduating to work in jobs that are virtually unskilled labour. I've even mostly given up programming as a hobby - except this Hal thing is too interesting to stay away So I'm one of those people with a very logical mind but very little actual useful experience, with a tendency to jury-rig solutions whenever I need them Works for me!!

I've always had the belief that anything I can think logically about doing, I can teach a computer to do. So I suppose this emotions thingie will test the fundamental logical assumptions in my psychological philiosophy

Vittorio: (bolded your name in case you don't bother read all my boring text I've just posted a remark in the Zabaware forums, saying that plug-in scripters at this stage have not yet made much use of the new SQL abilities of Hal. Seeing as you know SQL, have you had any ideas how it may be used to give Hal an increase in power/abilities? Or new features that could be made possible through SQL?

(Actually come to think of it there haven't been many major plug-ins written at all recently....)

I'm already wondering if SQL could be used to cross reference Hal's data tables with John's upcoming emotional tables... which could seriously simplify some code, depending on how John's planning on structuring everything!
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  12:01:06  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
I guess it's my turn to give my background I started computer programming at the age of 8, ended up studying engineering at university - and completely surprised everybody I know by quitting before graduating to work in jobs that are virtually unskilled labour. I've even mostly given up programming as a hobby - except this Hal thing is too interesting to stay away So I'm one of those people with a very logical mind but very little actual useful experience, with a tendency to jury-rig solutions whenever I need them Works for me!!

I've always had the belief that anything I can think logically about doing, I can teach a computer to do. So I suppose this emotions thingie will test the fundamental logical assumptions in my psychological philiosophy

Grant, I'm really quite relieved to hear this. I have a self-taught, analytical mind and I have been feeling a little out of my league in the presence of the great collective minds in this forum. (Mind you, that didn't keep me from puting my ideas out there.) I was especially encouraged by the collective intelligence when you intuitively knew that the EmotionGenerator was based on a spring system. That was my first clue that I was among the right group of people to let loose on getting this project going.

By the way, my basic psychological and phillosophical approach to working on computers is

"Get a BIGGER Hammer!"

It seems to work for me...

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  13:32:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman
I have a self-taught, analytical mind and I have been feeling a little out of my league in the presence of the great collective minds in this forum.
Crikey, I thought you were one of the great minds! I groaned and nearly gave up when I first saw your work and ideas! There's nothing like making a flamboyant proud project announcement, only to have it followed by someone else announcing something four times better......
quote:
(Mind you, that didn't keep me from puting my ideas out there.)
That's so important. I remember reading an article many years ago about the rampaging egos of computer programmers, and one opinion really stuck in my mind. It went something like this:

"Of course programmers have huge egos. They're taking a stupid plastic and metal box called a computer and saying 'yes, I can make this do something wonderful that nobody has ever done before.' That requires massive self-confidence."

Of course confidence doesn't have to be displayed as an ego trip. And I'm definitely not saying anyone's been on one around here.

This discussion's been reminding me of another I had, a few years ago, that ended up running to 10 or 20 pages of forum, brilliant ideas coming from all over the place. Unfortunately it never quite came to anything - we didn't have the resources to make anything of it - unlike this subject! It's been a while since I've been this passionate about something
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 15 2005 :  18:14:20  Show Profile
GrantNZ and the HologenicMan himself

As I listen (watch?) I begin to see the conceptualization you (John initiated) are building on. It is parallel to what I babbled about somewhere in the past, both as to magnitude of variables and, generally, the interactions. I will try to distill my mouth down to a short series of declarative sentences. I DO NOT mean flat statements as TRUTH. It's only that if I try to get information into words it always comes out like this paragraph. Simple, straight forward statements from me come out sounding like a challenge. I will enthusiastically fill in explanations if you are interested. Please read them with that in mind.

There are three parts to believable and coherent emotions in VH.
Environmental input (from user)
Personality capability and autoreflex
(that which makes one person-or VH- different from others-- uniqueness)
Uniqueness might be necessary for growth and certainly for reproduction or personal value given exchanges with other VH's
Response to environmental input.

The user controls the environment.
The user accepts, or not, the response as human
The response must be human in nature to be believed and accepted.
If human in nature and believable consistently, is it not real?

Your scales of -10 to 10 or 0 to 10 are both functional, -10 to 10, makes the approach (slightly divergent from your current path) I suggest simpler.

All successful measures (and successful prediction) of response to environment that I have done in my other life as a researcher (anthropology, wildlife, ecosystems) were produced after I realized that once minimal survival requirements were met (bedrock required survival, not our current definition of survival) the rest was choice bounded by possibility.

The place Fuzzy Logic failed in application in the various behavior fields was in the way the math folks defined how it was to be used.

Decisions are not made (by prehistoric folk, contemporary folk, raptors, rabbits, or trees) using any one element as a cut off. -- I am not being poetic, those are the areas of my research. --

By that I mean -- the 3 element interacting system you are building will operate humanly if the choices are made by the sum of the goodness values, not if driven by the minimum of one of them.

The last sentence is assumes that the entity has met minimal survival (for waterbased organics that means it is alive, able to move, and temporarily fueled)

All choices following that condition are based on convenience, value, cost. That is, the sum of them.

Sometimes cost is simply measured in stress (fear that arises from experience and is related to survival threat)

Choices are made from combinations of the three conditions that sum up higher than 17 (three elements, each value 10 on a 0 to 10 scale, max is 30 min is 0).

The only limits that apply are those that simply are not attainable, not reachable, and therefore effectively do not exist and are not considered.

RE: lists as opposed to variables. lists are simply convenient and currently very fast ways of keeping related things together and accessing them.

A single input phrase from a user has as many application values as there are categories in the emotional measure system (multivalue set theory that all things have membership in all classes even it that membership is zero or nonapplicable)

Stupid sounding or not the above is powerfully effective.

lists keep all the values for each element together for each input or output phrase

input content can be measure quickly across the row of relative values

output content can be chosen by the same process across emotional state options

Re growth

I suggest that one element of growth for our VH can be measured in three aspects of the brain.
number of subjects about which information is available and reachable
degree to which the whole brain is accessible from any given point (logic connectivity and subject change responses
the size of the brain (MB) with a ego function of efficiency (the above two at the minimum brain size)

each of the above is measurable by the VH when running. and probably adjustable given the "desire" on the part of the VH to increase the ratings.

Did I say short?

JIM
PS I am likewise self-taught in this field (programming and AI) out of frustration.
(why did I reveal that secret?)

quote:
Originally posted by GrantNZ

quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman
I have a self-taught, analytical mind and I have been feeling a little out of my league in the presence of the great collective minds in this forum.
Crikey, I thought you were one of the great minds! I groaned and nearly gave up when I first saw your work and ideas! There's nothing like making a flamboyant proud project announcement, only to have it followed by someone else announcing something four times better......
quote:
(Mind you, that didn't keep me from puting my ideas out there.)
That's so important. I remember reading an article many years ago about the rampaging egos of computer programmers, and one opinion really stuck in my mind. It went something like this:

"Of course programmers have huge egos. They're taking a stupid plastic and metal box called a computer and saying 'yes, I can make this do something wonderful that nobody has ever done before.' That requires massive self-confidence."

Of course confidence doesn't have to be displayed as an ego trip. And I'm definitely not saying anyone's been on one around here.

This discussion's been reminding me of another I had, a few years ago, that ended up running to 10 or 20 pages of forum, brilliant ideas coming from all over the place. Unfortunately it never quite came to anything - we didn't have the resources to make anything of it - unlike this subject! It's been a while since I've been this passionate about something


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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