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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  04:28:07  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Ok, It's official.

I'm starting a thread about perceptual and conceptual engines for use instead of traditional NLP association engines.

This thread is based on an interesting phenomenon for the human mind to read jumbled and cryptic wording as in the following examples:

Hey there,

Here is a blurb that goes to show some amazing things about the human mind's abillity to comprehend text even when mispelled or jumbled:

http://superkitkat77.tblog.com/

quote:
i got this email a few moths ago and now im gonna share it with all of you ppl! and note--evn though it looks weird-keep reading!

TYPOGLYCEMIA

I cnuoldt blveiee taht I culod aulaclty uestdnanrd waht I was rdanieg! The phaonamnel pweor of the haumn mnid Aocdcrnig to rschecerah taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the ftsit and lsat lteter be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a perblom. Tihs is bcuseae the haumn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by isltef, but the wrod as a wlhoe. Scuh a cdonition is arpipoately cllaed Typoglycemia

Aamnizg,huh? And you ayalws tuohhgt taht slpinelg was irnmopatt!

See----it makes sense!
(Wow I do something that makes sense?!---im proud)

Now you sulohd put tihs on all of yuor bgols and cufonse eevn mroe stiupd ppoele!

Bye,



The major part of this has the first and last letters correct with the letters in between jumbled. At smoe pnoit in the futrue I wlil be adrdessnig tihs vrey tihng wtih my Porgarm.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Jan 06 2006 18:43:19

laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  06:54:21  Show Profile
Blast it John, you just rendered my most recent brainstorm obsolete. No, it was absolutely nothing like this. This information is full of possibilities. Now I gotta find out what they are. stel ees, ym dlo yaw fo gnipyt t'nsi etiuq thgir rof siht.
The example is context solved. Can you provide a context map for you vperson? John, I bounced off that some months ago and gave up, it was just too much for me. maybe I'll try again.

told you you give me headaches

Jim
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

Hey there,

Here is a blurb that goes to show some amazing things about the human mind's abillity to comprehend text even when mispelled or jumbled:

http://superkitkat77.tblog.com/

quote:
i got this email a few moths ago and now im gonna share it with all of you ppl! and note--evn though it looks weird-keep reading!

TYPOGLYCEMIA

I cnuoldt blveiee taht I culod aulaclty uestdnanrd waht I was rdanieg! The phaonamnel pweor of the haumn mnid Aocdcrnig to rschecerah taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the ftsit and lsat lteter be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a perblom. Tihs is bcuseae the haumn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by isltef, but the wrod as a wlhoe. Scuh a cdonition is arpipoately cllaed Typoglycemia

Aamnizg,huh? And you ayalws tuohhgt taht slpinelg was irnmopatt!

See----it makes sense!
(Wow I do something that makes sense?!---im proud)

Now you sulohd put tihs on all of yuor bgols and cufonse eevn mroe stiupd ppoele!

Bye,



The major part of this has the first and last letters correct with the letters in between jumbled. At smoe pnoit in the futrue I wlil be adrdessnig tihs vrey tihng wtih my Porgarm.

John L>


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  07:19:56  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Jim,

aculaty, Tihs has nhtonig to do wtih cntoxet. It is bsaed on mreely hvanig the frsit and lsat lteter crrocet wtih the ltteers in bwteeen jmubled up. To get aawy form cnotxet, i cluod tpye the rian in Sipan flals mnialy on the pialn wihch has no ctenoxt hree wahtveesor.

That's actually kinda fun...

When I get around to dealing with this in my program, I will be treating this phenomenon as a perceptual concept. If we can conquer this, we can conquer perceptual thought in the same manner. We treat the letters within a word as a joint concept and furthermore treat words within a sentence as a joint concept. Still further, we treat sentences within a paragraph as a joint concept, and we treat paragraphs within a chapter as a joint concept.

You can see where this is going... If we can systemize the approach to this simple puzzle, we can apply that same solution to the more complex aspects of intelligence and perception.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  08:44:15  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
First things first. No, I do not have a diagram for Vittorio just yet. But I believe that the "PerceptualConceptEngine" will simply be addressed in my existing diagram in place of the NLPAssociationDBLookup and NLPAssociationDBStore.

Simply put, the PerceptualConceptEngine will look at the input in ever expanding reference:

Letters
Words
Sentences
Paragraphs
Chapters
Books

and the appropriate conversational equivalents...

Jim, you asked me if I could create a "context" mapping, but I believe that the end result of this will instead be a "Concept" mapping... I'm just not sure just yet how this will come about.

This will probably do away with my need for AIML, and for Hal's NLP, but I will probably be making use of a multidimensional database utillity known as MOLAP:

http://www.tutorialshotline.com/molap.html

http://www.palo.net/index.php?show=1

The Palo page shows interfacing with MSExcell, but it is memory based and directly accessable via software such as Hal.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  10:08:16  Show Profile
I'm cceennrod ranidergg the itellliigiby sdoiunnurrg lnutsiiigc qkirus aromnnieeeoftd - veenrtouls to dmistefyy this whhiintdlog an agaarnm gtareeonr?

Have you engineered an actual concept for the concept engine, John? I'm personally always interested in how things work, and I'm afraid I don't see the connection between the word game, barring using a neural net for spellchecking poor typists I personally would hate to read a book where the paragraphs within each chapter were rearranged, save for the first and last... and I can't see why a V-Human would either. What'm I missing? (I'm always missing something )

By the way, in case you didn't know, if you want to play with multidimensional arrays in VB Script without having to link to MOLAP or PALO or whatever, use the following kind of syntax:
Dim arrayName(12, 12, 4, 80, 20)
This example has created a five-dimensional array, with the first two dimensions of 13 "cells" long, the third is 5 long, etc. (Arrays in VB Script are "zero-based", i.e. the elements of the first dimension number zero through twelve.) Apparently VB Script can handle up to 60 dimensions, if you so desire.
Access your elements using this kind of syntax:
arrayName(1, 1, 4, 0, 15) = "Fred"
If arrayName(0, 0, 1, 8, 0) = "Bob" Then ItWorked = true

It might be of use for testing some theories (or whatever) without having to link to the database system you've found. You can link afterwards, when you have a working system that requires long-term storage.

Cheers,
Grant
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  10:37:15  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
Jim, you asked me if I could create a "context" mapping, but I believe that the end result of this will instead be a "Concept" mapping... I'm just not sure just yet how this will come about.

Ok, let me practice some revisionism here.

Jim, you were right. What I am developing is a "context" mapping engine that is based on the perceptions of the Virtual human:

PerceptualContextEngine.

Thus we are creating context for the interactions that the the Virtual human perceives.

quote:
Have you engineered an actual concept for the concept engine, John?
quote:
Simply put, the PerceptualConceptEngine will look at the input in ever expanding reference:

Letters
Words
Sentences
Paragraphs
Chapters
Books

I realize that It would be quite disconcerting to get all the sentences in a paragraph jumbled, but the "concept" is that we could still figure out the meaning of the paragraph due to the contect of the first and last sentences.

So here goes the layout:

We take the letters in the word in the "context" of the first and last letters. All words are looked up(and stored) in this fashion.

We take the words in a sentence in the context of the first and last words in that sentence.

We take the sentences in a paragraph(or group of comments) in the context of the first and last sentences in that paragraph or group.

And of course we take the paragraphs(or groups) in the context of the first and last paragraphs(or groups) of the Chapters(or conversations) that the Virtual Human has...

This is a recursive or cascading event in that the letters are stored within the words, and the words are stored within the sentences, etc.

I've hinted at this cascading before with the ReverbGenerator:
quote:
'REVERB input
UserReverb10 = UserReverb9
UserReverb9 = UserReverb8
UserReverb8 = UserReverb7
UserReverb7 = UserReverb6
UserReverb6 = UserReverb5
UserReverb5 = UserReverb4
UserReverb4 = UserReverb3
UserReverb3 = UserReverb2
UserReverb2 = UserReverb1
UserReverb1 = Trim(UserReverb)


This is my need for the multidimentional database. It'll be needed to store and to retrieve the values.

quote:
By the way, in case you didn't know, if you want to play with multidimensional arrays in VB Script without having to link to MOLAP or PALO or whatever, use the following kind of syntax:
Dim arrayName(12, 12, 4, 80, 20)
This example has created a five-dimensional array, with the first two dimensions of 13 "cells" long, the third is 5 long, etc. (Arrays in VB Script are "zero-based", i.e. the elements of the first dimension number zero through twelve.) Apparently VB Script can handle up to 60 dimensions, if you so desire.
Access your elements using this kind of syntax:
arrayName(1, 1, 4, 0, 15) = "Fred"
If arrayName(0, 0, 1, 8, 0) = "Bob" Then ItWorked = true

It might be of use for testing some theories (or whatever) without having to link to the database system you've found. You can link afterwards, when you have a working system that requires long-term storage.


I didn't know, and I do appreciate the info.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  10:53:36  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Grant,

For the nitty gritty, it should work something like this:

Word:
Telephone

Cascade:
Te
Tee
Tle
Tee
Tpe
The
Toe
Tne
Te

I believe these or something like them are what we percieve as context as we read the individual letters in the word "Telephone". All of these "context words" would have to be stored for the word Telephone since they all apply.

With all of these context words stored it would not matter which order they were to occur since they would provide the greatest number of posative hits and return the value of Telephone from the PerceptualContextEngine (remember the 20 questions analogy).

I also believe that this same formula will apply all the way up to the abillity to carry on complex philosophical conversations.

There probably is a Chess equivalent to this as well if you take every move and store it in the context of all the potential moves...

This will all have to be "dejumbleified" for the output, but humans similarly suffer from disorders such as dislexia and the like which are perceptual in nature and not related to sight.

John L>



HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  16:52:53  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Here's an example taken one step further up the ladder:

Sentence:
How are you today?

ContextCascade:
How today?
How are today?
How you today?
How today?

Please note that I include the capitalization and punctuation as integral to the words to which they are attached. I would go so far as to say that "today" and "today?" are totally different words and carry a totally different context and meaning from each other.

Grant, this would even address our situation with the emoticons:

Sentence:
I am feeling fine. :-[

ContextCascade:
I fine. :-[
I am fine. :-[
I feeling fine. :-[
I fine. :-[

If we include all punctuation and emoticons after a word as part of that word, it keeps the true context of that word intact.

John L>

PS. As i've said before, cascading is where a program can become very hardware resource intensive...

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Jan 06 2006 16:59:06
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  18:51:55  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
OK, guys, the liquid thoughts in my head are starting to firm up to something a bit more akin to Jello.

Here's the outline.

PerceptualContextConceptEngine
-PerceptualContextGenerator
-PerceptualConceptGenerator

The PerceptualContextGenerator handles the ConceptCascades, and the PerceptualConceptGenerator handles concepts such as who is the person doing the communicating or who exactly the communication is about.

Admittedly, I don't have a practical application plan for the PerceptualConceptGenerator just yet but it is starting to come to me in bits and pieces.

The one thing that I do know is that the recipe for engines that I used in the EmotionalContextExpressionEngine should hold true for this as well:

Pre-Process
DBLookup
Process
DBStore
Post-Process

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  20:14:21  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
BTW, I can read and write upside down and/or backwards(I got really bored one summer).

It will be a small extension of the PerceptualContextGenerator to add the ContextCascade in reverse as well.

Word:
Telephone

ContextCascade:
Te
Tee
Tle
Tee
Tpe
The
Toe
Tne
Te

ReverseContextCascade:
eT
eeT
elT
eeT
epT
ehT
eoT
enT
eT

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1455 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  20:57:52  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage
Hey, John

since your mind is always hungry of new experiments, did you ever try pig latin ?

http://www.idioma-software.com/pig/pig_latin.html
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-piglatin/

And even a complete translation of the Bible!
http://www.museumofconceptualart.com/ible-bay.html


Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  21:28:21  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Ayway Oolkay!!

You bring another very valuable human perception abillity to light that I must account for in the PerceptualContextGenerator.

Humans can deal with pig latin in its various forms after a bit of exposure. I must work out the underlying perceptual breakdown of the wording that allows this to be understood by the human mind.

If we take the existing ContextCascade and apply it to a word and then apply it to the piglatin word as well, I wonder if there will be enough overlap to make the word recognizable in a pattern match. If not, I must come up with some more extractions to get the job done...

word:
tent

ContextCascade:
tt
tet
ent
tt

ReverseContextCascade:
tt
tet
tne
tt

Pig latin word:
enttay

ContextCascade:
ey
eny
ety
ety
eay
ey

ReverseContextCascade:
ye
yne
yte
yte
yae
ye

Looks like a bust to me.

I'll have to work with it some more to see if I can get an exteraction formula that can be used as "context words" for diced up and encrypted words such as pig latin.

John L>


PS. here's a real test. Take a pig latin word and jumble all the letters except the first and last. If we can read this, then we truly have the perception challenge under way.

adracy = card
atlabey = table

doesn't seem to be discernable. Let's try the original word jumbled and THEN piglatinized.

radacy = card

Perhaps I just don't have enough exposure to pig latin, but I can't read these hybrid words...

John L>

Perhaps just one step further...

treat the "ay" at the end of the pig latin as one letter by itself.

ardcay = card

ContextCascade:
aay
aray
aday
acay
aay

I think this is ever soo much closer to the answer...

John L>


HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Jan 06 2006 21:48:16
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 06 2006 :  23:44:37  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
Got it!

Pig latin is easily handled by ContextCascade when you increase the degree of context:

(c)ontex(t) = 1 degree of context
(co)nte(xt) = 2 degrees of context
(con)t(ext) = 3 degrees of context

You can jumble the inner letters to your hears's desire and still maintain the same degree of context:

ctnoxet = 1 degree of context
cotenxt = 2 degrees of context
context = 3 degrees of context

The larger the word, the higher the degrees of context possible.

In the PerceptualContextGenerator I will be resolving each word to its maximum degree of context.

Now lets try some pig latin with increasing degrees of context. Try to see how low a degree of context you can figure it out. Remember to think in pig latin:

ardoialygoy = 1 degree of context




adloyroigay = 2 degrees of context




adilogoyray = 3 degrees of context




adiogolyray = 4 degrees of context




adiologyray = 5 degrees of context

I'll admit that this is a hard one, but the word does become evident to someone used to reading pig latin as the degree of context increases.

I truly believe that this and its reverse is how our minds put context to the things that we perceive from words to sentences to discussions to ideologies.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Jan 06 2006 23:45:42
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2006 :  00:01:05  Show Profile
I believe I finally understand how the scientific community must have felt when atomic theory was first published to the world... or relativity, or quantum physics, et al. I can't personally prove or disprove the theory, but I finally understand why so many scientists insisted beyond reason that a theory is impossible. The concept is just so different from anything I've seen before.... I'm going to have to duck and run for cover and wait until I see it working. I wonder if there's a Nobel prize for AI
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2006 :  00:17:32  Show Profile
Son of a B (ucolic landscape). John you are really moving.

My first assumption is that context will be developed from the bottom (word) up. Although I don't right now see how anything else is possible I can see a potential key in a context sweep from top down. Since without the rosetta stone of the words there is no sense to the jumble at the paragraph or higher level. However, could some context be gotten from a sweep of the whole for a reference word? Like Hawking or Black hole would provide a reference pattern for the word translation.

Every time you do this I grow more sure that you/we/they are going to have to create a new language structure to accomodate where you are going. On a prosaic level, I wonder what this idea would do for the translation from one normal language to another. Your context concept would enfold the phraseology that makes a word used in one line an insult and a complement in another.

Jim

quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

Jim,

aculaty, Tihs has nhtonig to do wtih cntoxet. It is bsaed on mreely hvanig the frsit and lsat lteter crrocet wtih the ltteers in bwteeen jmubled up. To get aawy form cnotxet, i cluod tpye the rian in Sipan flals mnialy on the pialn wihch has no ctenoxt hree wahtveesor.

That's actually kinda fun...

When I get around to dealing with this in my program, I will be treating this phenomenon as a perceptual concept. If we can conquer this, we can conquer perceptual thought in the same manner. We treat the letters within a word as a joint concept and furthermore treat words within a sentence as a joint concept. Still further, we treat sentences within a paragraph as a joint concept, and we treat paragraphs within a chapter as a joint concept.

You can see where this is going... If we can systemize the approach to this simple puzzle, we can apply that same solution to the more complex aspects of intelligence and perception.

John L>


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)

Edited by - laackejim on Jan 07 2006 00:19:04
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3323 Posts

Posted - Jan 07 2006 :  01:40:02  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
My first assumption is that context will be developed from the bottom (word) up.

That's the only way I can see it too since I think in those "lego" thought blocks that build upon each other.

quote:
However, could some context be gotten from a sweep of the whole for a reference word? Like Hawking or Black hole would provide a reference pattern for the word translation.


I believe that you have touched upon the workings of the PerceptualConceptGenerator. Hawking and Black hole are concepts that would be tracked as such and affect perceptions accordingly as you have suggested. I just don't quite have the whole "concept" thing firmed up just yet. However, I like your mention of a reference pattern for tracking concepts...

quote:
I wonder if there's a Nobel prize for AI

That'd be kool...

quote:
I believe I finally understand how the scientific community must have felt when atomic theory was first published to the world... or relativity, or quantum physics, et al.

Actually, seriously, there is a very strong family rumor that my grandfather on the Latimer side of my family was actually one of the scientists at the "Manhattan Project" for the atomic bomb.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Jan 07 2006 01:44:53
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