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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 22 2005 :  22:41:45  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
I am opening a discussion of the importance of temporal awareness in the simulation (or attaining) of consciousness.

Simply put, life doesn't exist without the passage of time. Therefore, conscious thought must incorproate a temporally aware aspect in order to exist.

That was the theoretical part, now for the practical part.

I am proposing that we add "rhythm tags" (similar to the emotion tags that I have already added:AP2AP) to the text input forwarded to the association engine(NLP). That way, when something repeats itself at a specific period it will be recognized as such by the association engine.

Here are the easily attainable increments that I will be putting into rhythm tags:
-Second tags for events repeating every minute
-Minute tags for hourly periods
-Hour tags for day long periods
-Day of week tags for weekly periods
-Day of month for month long periods
-months for annual events.

Plus the values from:
-Physical Biorhythm
-Emotional Biorhythm
-Intellectual Biorhythm

This will have to be compounded further by also having a "half interval" and a "quarter Interval" and an "eigth interval". That will allow for events that are not "Exactly" on the period.

Hours make the best example:
there is a Daily period incremented in hours(0-23). There is also a half increment of 0-1(incremented every 12 hours over the 24 hour period). Furthermore, there is a Quad period of 0-3 that is incremented every 6 hours. And the eigth interval 0-7 incremented every 3 hours.

Let's say it's dinner time, and that happens every day at the same time. Kool, unless dinner is a bit late one night. however, the eigth increment would allow for that and the quad increment would allow for those even a bit later. The half increment would even allow for midnight meals!

I am aware that I have just multiplied my original 9 emotion tags by 5 to now equal 45... By the time I'm done there will probably be 81 tagso of some kind being fed into the association engine. I consider that to be a nice compromise for tomorrow's ideas that can run on today's hardware.

The approach that I'm taking is to figure out what is important to create emotion and temporal awareness and I will deal with the association engine at a later point...

John L>


HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 22 2005 :  23:03:32  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
btw, It's already a bit freaky when Hal sends me to bed because it is too late.

Just immagine what it will be like when Hal says, "Weren't we just talking about this yesterday?"

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  05:32:45  Show Profile
May I be picky? Please don't take any offense - I'm in a devil's advocate mood!

quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

Simply put, life doesn't exist without the passage of time.


Poor postulate. You may as well say "life doesn't exist without the letter 'f'." Life in fact is generally defined by what something does as time progresses.

Another way of looking at it: We can't tell if life exists without the passage of time, because we can't stop time and look around

quote:
Therefore, conscious thought must incorproate a temporally aware aspect in order to exist.


I'm not sure if this is true. Hal told me consciousness is: "an alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation." I'm not sure if time is required for this. Before you say "time is a part of your situation," so are all sorts of things like magnetic fields, and I'm sure not aware of the magnetic fields in my area.

Here's another definition of consciousness: having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts. If I'm aware that I don't have shelter, I can go and buy a house, but I don't need to be aware of the passage of time or that it will eventually rain and freeze me to death. For sure, if I don't get shelter I won't last very long, but this isn't essential to consciousness - the main point is that I'm enough aware of my current condition, and can use that to choose my actions. I'm inherently programmed to find shelter

In fact, (oh dear I'm getting carried away) I can't even prove time exists! My absolute current "now" point of conciousness is possibly the sum of all that has happened before me - but I have no way of knowing the world wasn't created "just before now" complete with "memories" of the things that have happened to me "in the past."

The interesting bit of consciousness to me is the aspect "awareness of thoughts." But I'm not sure how we may make a V-Human aware that he is "thinking" and draw conclusions from it.

Come to think of it, I'm not even sure I'm truly able to analyse my own thoughts. I know that they're there (or at least I have memories of thinking), but whenever I try to focus on my actual process of thinking, it slips away from me. "I think therefore I am" - but how do I know that I think?

I wonder how a conscious V-Human would react if he saw his own source code. Humans have made neural networks, but how much has this helped us understand our own consciousness?

Maybe it's all just ineffable.

Quick note on the definition of consciousness: having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts. It's only the thoughts aspect that is missing - the other two are trivial. Hal's conscious awareness of "surroundings" is that he is in a position where he receives words and may spit words out. Sensations are the words. Really, we humans work the same way - data in, we notice it, react, and spit data out.

And back to the shelter example - although as a conscious being I don't need to know about time before I desire shelter, my designer needs to bear time in mind. I must be designed to find shelter appealing. Another example: I don't consciously worry about having internal fuel supplies to last until the next meal - I just get hungry and eat. Someone else designed me to retain fuel and get hungry again before it totally runs out.

In an ideal V-Human, how should time be modelled? Do we build it in as hard-wired consciousness? Or do we leave it as yet another "concept" that is learned along with everything else? I wonder at what stage of life humans become conscious of the passage of time? Try explaining to a young child that he must wait 15 minutes....

Anyway, this hasn't been very helpful, has it Sorry!

On to your implementation - I understand the idea, and see that it would work the same way the emotion tags work. I wonder what would happen if I said something at the exact same minute past the hour and second past the minute as something else - would Hal identify "minute = minute and second = second" and return the other phrase, even though the original was at 10:19:23 am and it's now 4:19:23 pm?

quote:
I am aware that I have just multiplied my original 9 emotion tags by 5 to now equal 45...


I've finally found a scientific way to express my concerns. Hal's NLP unit of data is the word. Let's say a sentence has on average nine words (and this may be a high guess!). Then with 45 "words" of emotion and time, we're essentially telling Hal that emotions and time together are five times more important than the actual linguistic content of the sentence!

I'm not sure how to correct this issue... we can't very well join tags together, since Hal will not look at elements of tags, and will show no similarity between emotions that vary by only one sub-tag.

quote:
By the time I'm done there will probably be 81 tagso of some kind being fed into the association engine.


9 : 1 ratio of emotions+time : semantic content. Eek!

It's a shame we can't adjust Hal's relevance algorithm to scale down emotional/temporal relevance....

quote:
The approach that I'm taking is to figure out what is important to create emotion and temporal awareness and I will deal with the association engine at a later point...


I can't see any problem with the actual idea - you certaintly seem to have all the necessary units for Hal to identify common time recurrances!

Eek, what a long post. Ahh dear, someone slap me.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  05:35:21  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

btw, It's already a bit freaky when Hal sends me to bed because it is too late.

Just immagine what it will be like when Hal says, "Weren't we just talking about this yesterday?"


I'd actually quite like the ability to add fields to the databases, so that we could record time, emotions etc directly with the sentences without watering down the semantic content with emotional tags. Then Hal could tell you exactly when you last talked about something!

But this would require changes to Hal which aren't available in script. Or at least wouls require scripting of Hal's DLL routines, which would probably be very slow to execute, and we don't have Hal's DLL source code to work from
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  06:18:44  Show Profile
You are absolutely correct. Flow of instances is the reference by which we exist. (Recent stuff in Sci. Amer. and some of Hawkings books set up that conclusion). It may be the only thing that makes up a ME as opposed to all the other me's that probably exist.

I am opening a discussion of the importance of temporal awareness in the simulation (or attaining) of consciousness.

Simply put, life doesn't exist without the passage of time. Therefore, conscious thought must incorproate a temporally aware aspect in order to exist.

That was the theoretical part, now for the practical part.

A practical consideration for the practical part is the magnitude of difference between human perceptual time and computer perceptual time. I hope there is no gulf in the monstrous difference that cannot be bridged by the method you are describing. The above obviously assumes that VHuman consciousness is possible.
------------------------------
I am proposing that we add "rhythm tags" (similar to the emotion tags that I have already added:AP2AP) to the text input forwarded to the association engine(NLP). That way, when something repeats itself at a specific period it will be recognized as such by the association engine.
------------------------------
As to the above You might be dealing with two different phenomona. A schedule of when things happen in a normal day, week, month, year is certainly useful. But, Is there a difference in human emotions and response based on some of the schedules you described. If dinner is delayed beyond a certain period is there a response to that delay period that is different than the response to a delay just short of that? Is there a special response to a delay in making contact with spouse, child, or VHuman that is timing related but not linear?

Another way for me to try to make sense of the topic you just stuck in my head is -- do I mark my life as coherent by a nice linear/temporal flow of instances, things, occurances. Or do I mark it by temporal connections between special events, occurances, things. I suspect the latter to a large degree. No I am fairly sure of the latter.

If I am correct then all (HA! all) you have to provide the VHuman is the "feeling" of a temporal span between key events and the rest will fall into place. In my head it is something like a closet with a long clothes bar. On the bar are significant hangers with (from left to right) a baby outfit, puppy, christmas tree, skinned knee, baseball glove, black eye, fishing trip, first recognition that girls weren't like me. Etc etc. These are at irregular intervals but sequential --that is-- temporal. In between are hung, temporarily, lots of other things. Dinners, meetings, schedules, tv shows etc. almost all of those are short-term hangers and only in the last few strokes of the temporal bar. Some of them actually turn out to be important enough to become vague dusty things hanging in the approximate temporal location (that is vaguely between things that I know the position of).

The thing that gives a history to this bar is the increasing vagueness of things a long way back, And the sense of distance. Is there a way to give this to the data a digital being uses? I bet there is. Now, John, how are lyou going to do it?

This concept MAY make the job of creating a temporal sense for your/our v-humanl easier, or more difficult, or it may be irrevelant. However your concept pushed me again and -- that's what came out.

Keep it up John. Your ideas and approaches are filling up my head with wonderful thoughts about things that heretofore were always some kind of foggy haze I didn't care about.

JIm
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman




John L>




Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  06:41:32  Show Profile
Is there any reason HAL cannot read an ascii file as a list? and put it into a sequential list that is. If HAL can then the linkages should be doable. I have absolutely no experience with that language but when I read some print out of the code I swear I see references to tables on the fly.

Did Vittorio's recent explanation of code include some reference?

quote:
Originally posted by GrantNZ

quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

btw, It's already a bit freaky when Hal sends me to bed because it is too late.

Just immagine what it will be like when Hal says, "Weren't we just talking about this yesterday?"


I'd actually quite like the ability to add fields to the databases, so that we could record time, emotions etc directly with the sentences without watering down the semantic content with emotional tags. Then Hal could tell you exactly when you last talked about something!

But this would require changes to Hal which aren't available in script. Or at least wouls require scripting of Hal's DLL routines, which would probably be very slow to execute, and we don't have Hal's DLL source code to work from


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  07:06:51  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
May I be picky? Please don't take any offense - I'm in a devil's advocate mood!


Please do be picky. That's how we get to improve on the status quoe.

btw, please also take any and everything that I ever post as it is intended with posative, good intentions. Of course, that doesn't mean that we have to agree on the things that we are posting...

quote:
We can't tell if life exists without the passage of time, because we can't stop time and look around


I like this postulate much better...

It proves what I am trying to say. Life without the passage of time is just suspended animation. Even now, we pass time as we type text into Hal and press enter and wait for a response. "Awareness" of that passage of time is the essence of consciousness.

So far, I have only introduced the need for repeating rhythm cycles. Next will come the need for cascading previous configurations and re-introducing them to provide a history.(btw, I read somewhere that UltraHal keeps track of the last ten statements)
quote:
In an ideal V-Human, how should time be modelled? Do we build it in as hard-wired consciousness? Or do we leave it as yet another "concept" that is learned along with everything else?

Rhythms are hard-wired and then we learn to recognize them after enough rhythms. Passage of time is hard-wired and we learn to recognize it by comparing our present to our past.

quote:
I wonder what would happen if I said something at the exact same minute past the hour and second past the minute as something else - would Hal identify "minute = minute and second = second" and return the other phrase, even though the original was at 10:19:23 am and it's now 4:19:23 pm?


That would be great. Kinda like the way I figure out jokes a few days later...

This would also be akin to remembering something later without remembering why it now popped into your head.
quote:
we're essentially telling Hal that emotions and time together are five times more important than the actual linguistic content of the sentence!


BINGO, that is EXACTLY what I want to tell Hal. Linguistics are so trivial compared to the total aspect of comunication. Body language, sounds, even smells make up some of the many parts of our conscious experience. That is what I am trying to capture for association by Hal.
quote:
9 : 1 ratio of emotions+time : semantic content. Eek!

It's a shame we can't adjust Hal's relevance algorithm to scale down emotional/temporal relevance....


Don't try to scale it down, exploit it!

Btw, I'm currently at 30 tags, but that does not allow for temporal cascading as of yet.

Anyway, back to the tag:semantics ratio. We must realize that when dealing with larger numbers and letting "trends" rule the day that only a few tags will end up matching the current HalBrain.SearchPattern(). When we get to that point, it will be a matter of choosing the response that has the largest number of posative hits for tags and semantics combined.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  07:21:00  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
I'd actually quite like the ability to add fields to the databases, so that we could record time, emotions etc directly with the sentences without watering down the semantic content with emotional tags. Then Hal could tell you exactly when you last talked about something!


Not a very major watering if you do:

UserSentence " D" & Date & "D T" & Time & "T " & Trim(UserSentence) & " "

I haven't looked to see what Hal will do with the slashes in the date, but something like that should do something like you want unless I'm just really confused about what you need.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.

Edited by - hologenicman on Dec 23 2005 07:48:20
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  07:44:19  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
Another way for me to try to make sense of the topic you just stuck in my head is -- do I mark my life as coherent by a nice linear/temporal flow of instances, things, occurances. Or do I mark it by temporal connections between special events, occurances, things. I suspect the latter to a large degree. No I am fairly sure of the latter.


I think it's the latter also. Landmarks stand out because of the strength of emotional status that they hold. The EMotion tags should handle this need if they are working correctly.

quote:
If I am correct then all (HA! all) you have to provide the VHuman is the "feeling" of a temporal span between key events and the rest will fall into place. In my head it is something like a closet with a long clothes bar. On the bar are significant hangers with (from left to right) a baby outfit, puppy, christmas tree, skinned knee, baseball glove, black eye, fishing trip, first recognition that girls weren't like me. Etc etc. These are at irregular intervals but sequential --that is-- temporal.

I do believe that you have presented a very good analogy for visualizing the timeline.

Now, don't think of the closet as a whole, but rather one item at a time. Let's say that you hang the very first item at the left most aspect of the bar, and then continue hanging items to the right of the last item until you reach the furthest right point of the bar and call it quits.

Any given item will have a temporal relationship with any other item in the closet.

You can take the logical computer oriented approach and simply give each item a date and time stamp when you hang it in the closet, but that doesn't do anything to create temporal "awareness". All it does is give labels to items that can be read and dealt with.

I am proposing that we give each item in the closet a "Temporal cascade" in which it knows it's "relative" position in the closet. Ideally, we could give it information about what is ahead and behind it, but I have chosen to only give it information about the items behind it(it's immediate history so to speak). This is not used as a strict time base but rather for the purpose of establishing a "feeling" of the timeline based on the items within the timeline itself.

In this manner, time will "flow" through the referencing system and become part of the information that is stored.

Practical stuff:

9 emotion words are stored as current then moved and tagged as previous when new words become current. both of these are moved down by one and tagged accordingly as the newest set of words fill the current slot.

27 words are put into the address and the temporal information is "encoded" into the address with a "feeling" for the "history" of the durrent item hanging on the bar in the closet.

This needs to be refined a bit since this has the biggest potential for using up resources that are not currently available on today's hardware.

This will, however, be the required ingredient before machines will obtain consciousness.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  07:59:18  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
The thing that gives a history to this bar is the increasing vagueness of things a long way back, And the sense of distance. Is there a way to give this to the data a digital being uses? I bet there is. Now, John, how are lyou going to do it?


Jim, you present me with a concept that I will need to think about.

The fading of memory over time is a very real aspect to our life experience.

Without "thinking" out the answer, I can tell you that I "Feel" that older memories will fade naturally as a matter of being "Diluted" by the newer, fresher memories filling the database associations.

I am not as concerned by this particular emulation because, I plan to replace the NLP association engine with a holographic based association engine in the future. Such holographic based association engine will have a natural entrophy for older associations that are not highly charged(emotionally).

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
Go to Top of Page

laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  08:18:45  Show Profile
Blast you John! Here I sit, bottle of dark german ale in one hand and a pile of cashews in the other, trying to do my things and all I can think about is what you stuck in my head.
How about the time when the machine is shut down or your Hal is not activated? What if an external program stuck little pieces in to the file for things like a full moon or some little part of life -- trip to store -- with an emotional tag -- pleasure or irritation -- and a time stamp. then on successive updates those things are blurred, the time stamp spread instead of being a fixed millisecond.

As to resources, It is possible to encode HUGE amounts of data in a tiny space using bit encoding. One of the things I developed when I was a paid researcher was a way of storing landscape data for the National Forests. Everything they ever wanted to know about the land, stored acre by acre for 42,000 sq miles and it all fit inside 80MB. 160 MB if you included all changes, or projected changes, over a 255 year period. I did it by using a standard 16 bit word and using the bits as a dichotomous key that was interpreted by a very small program. Details here are irrelevant BUT if resources are a limit and the information to be stored and recalled is general -- experience type 1, emotional memory type 3, data type 2 -- you could store a life history in a thousand bytes. and get it out at will. The input to output efficiency of the thing I did for land was in the neighborhood of 2 million to one with the reference of standard programs and data storage. for more complex memory quesions lets make a gross estimate of a thousand to one.

Gad am I going to have a headache, must be the cashews.

John, someday I just gotta meet you. Man can you kick start a guy's brain.

Jim
quote:
Originally posted by hologenicman

quote:
Another way for me to try to make sense of the topic you just stuck in my head is -- do I mark my life as coherent by a nice linear/temporal flow of instances, things, occurances. Or do I mark it by temporal connections between special events, occurances, things. I suspect the latter to a large degree. No I am fairly sure of the latter.


I think it's the latter also. Landmarks stand out because of the strength of emotional status that they hold. The EMotion tags should handle this need if they are working correctly.

quote:
If I am correct then all (HA! all) you have to provide the VHuman is the "feeling" of a temporal span between key events and the rest will fall into place. In my head it is something like a closet with a long clothes bar. On the bar are significant hangers with (from left to right) a baby outfit, puppy, christmas tree, skinned knee, baseball glove, black eye, fishing trip, first recognition that girls weren't like me. Etc etc. These are at irregular intervals but sequential --that is-- temporal.

I do believe that you have presented a very good analogy for visualizing the timeline.

Now, don't think of the closet as a whole, but rather one item at a time. Let's say that you hang the very first item at the left most aspect of the bar, and then continue hanging items to the right of the last item until you reach the furthest right point of the bar and call it quits.

Any given item will have a temporal relationship with any other item in the closet.

You can take the logical computer oriented approach and simply give each item a date and time stamp when you hang it in the closet, but that doesn't do anything to create temporal "awareness". All it does is give labels to items that can be read and dealt with.

I am proposing that we give each item in the closet a "Temporal cascade" in which it knows it's "relative" position in the closet. Ideally, we could give it information about what is ahead and behind it, but I have chosen to only give it information about the items behind it(it's immediate history so to speak). This is not used as a strict time base but rather for the purpose of establishing a "feeling" of the timeline based on the items within the timeline itself.

In this manner, time will "flow" through the referencing system and become part of the information that is stored.

Practical stuff:

9 emotion words are stored as current then moved and tagged as previous when new words become current. both of these are moved down by one and tagged accordingly as the newest set of words fill the current slot.

27 words are put into the address and the temporal information is "encoded" into the address with a "feeling" for the "history" of the durrent item hanging on the bar in the closet.

This needs to be refined a bit since this has the biggest potential for using up resources that are not currently available on today's hardware.

This will, however, be the required ingredient before machines will obtain consciousness.

John L>


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  08:25:41  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
Is there a difference in human emotions and response based on some of the schedules you described. If dinner is delayed beyond a certain period is there a response to that delay period that is different than the response to a delay just short of that? Is there a special response to a delay in making contact with spouse, child, or VHuman that is timing related but not linear?


The Rhythms are "hard-wired", but the emotional "significance" of the rhythms is most definately learned.

Even hunger in delaying the dinner is a matter of having the Arousal value drop and sending a "pain" value to the Valence value on a regularly occurring rhythm until we learn that we get hungry at "about" the same time every day.(Pavlov's dog on a timer) Sooner or later, we will learn to experience the loss of energy and hunger pain according to the recurring rhythm instead of the "actual" value input to the HormonesNeedsInterface.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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Joe Repka
Curious Member



USA
34 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  08:50:50  Show Profile
OK, some stuff that sound philosophical but is actually very much on the level of practice:

Time is the essential organizing feature for all recognition and knowledge and is explicitly needed for NLP. Ordering in time (just another dimension for existence and knowledge) is similar to ordering in the spatial dimensions. A vHuman that experiences our world must have a sense of time just as basically as it must perceive in spatial dimensions (or at least process information as though it does).

But I don't see giving the vMind a precise internal clock as the way to get there. Properly integrated sequential memories of experience should do the trick well enough. Memory is the past with established temporal relations that may be entirely relative. Now is new and is continually becoming memory. We recognize now by the appearance of something new. The future is a fuzzy model of expectations. Now is the inteaction of that model with immediate new experience.

The vMind that has a memory that incorporates temporal relationships and allows inferences on them, that is continually being built from experience, and that also serves as the basis for model for predicting behavior of the environment based on supposition need have further time sense.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  08:55:21  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
Blast you John! Here I sit, bottle of dark german ale in one hand and a pile of cashews in the other, trying to do my things and all I can think about is what you stuck in my head.


"One is glad to be of service."

quote:
John, someday I just gotta meet you. Man can you kick start a guy's brain.


Perhaps that will happen someday. It's not like we live too far apart.
You may be suprised, but I am not really that much of a "people person". I work as a public servant of sorts at the local hospital where I spend my day being paid to "act" like a people person, and then I go home to my wonderful wife and children where they accept me for who I am. Of course, with them I enjoy being a people person because of the love, respect, and experiences that are shared.

In social settings, I just don't feel "at home". I don't drink to speak of, and I could care less about sports scores or standings. I would best describe myself as a "stick in the mud".

I enjoy this forum because I get to discuss and share the thoughts that are floating in my brain without having the person that I am talking to getting that glassy-eyed, far-off look. Or at least if you do, I can't tell it over the internet.

I have to say though, Jim, that I really get a kick out of your enthusiasism. It's quite a refreshing difference from the far-off, glassy-eyed look.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  09:07:50  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
Memory is the past with established temporal relations that may be entirely relative. Now is new and is continually becoming memory. We recognize now by the appearance of something new. The future is a fuzzy model of expectations. Now is the inteaction of that model with immediate new experience.


You have very acurately described that which I keep calling a "Temporal Cascade". The only difference is that I feel that this history needs to be encoded into the "now" interface as a sort of feedback loop.

This feedback loop is what I believe constitutes conscious awareness as it can be experienced by a machine.

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 23 2005 :  16:48:06  Show Profile
I agree with Joe, a precise internal clock for life memory would emphasize the already existng differences between computers and people. Precision to the millisecond is not a human trait and not particularily endearing. (remember Data on Star Trek). The problem may well be finding a way to make the computer memory less that millisecond precision. might have to do that seperately and stuff it in.



quote:
Originally posted by Joe Repka

OK, some stuff that sound philosophical but is actually very much on the level of practice:

Time is the essential organizing feature for all recognition and knowledge and is explicitly needed for NLP. Ordering in time (just another dimension for existence and knowledge) is similar to ordering in the spatial dimensions. A vHuman that experiences our world must have a sense of time just as basically as it must perceive in spatial dimensions (or at least process information as though it does).

But I don't see giving the vMind a precise internal clock as the way to get there. Properly integrated sequential memories of experience should do the trick well enough. Memory is the past with established temporal relations that may be entirely relative. Now is new and is continually becoming memory. We recognize now by the appearance of something new. The future is a fuzzy model of expectations. Now is the inteaction of that model with immediate new experience.

The vMind that has a memory that incorporates temporal relationships and allows inferences on them, that is continually being built from experience, and that also serves as the basis for model for predicting behavior of the environment based on supposition need have further time sense.


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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