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thenar
Curious Member



USA
69 Posts

Posted - Dec 16 2005 :  21:45:19  Show Profile  Visit thenar's Homepage
As you know, I believe a sense of humor is very important part of making vpeople believable. In my book I talked about how we can script them to make humorous comments and that's important. But we need to be thinking about how we can program them with rules of good humor and wit so that they can come up with their own jokes. My tip is this. Think about how you could take only two or three rules and develop a humor engine that would create it's own jokes. One think I would do is look at using homonyms.

In another post I talk about programming your vperson to switch homonyms in meaningful ways. Let's say you build up a small database of interesting homonyms that can be exchanged to humorous effect. For example "Your anus" and "Uranus" There are many such pairs. And then when your vperson has an opportunity to us one of the pair, give him rules to determine if switching them will make sense and be funny. It can be done. It's kind of a challange. I think we aught to have a contest to see who can do the best job of it.

There are a number of good books on the structure and development of humor and wit. They can be converted to rules that can be programmed into your vpeople. Think about it.
-P-

-P-

hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 16 2005 :  22:03:07  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
There are a number of good books on the structure and development of humor and wit. They can be converted to rules that can be programmed into your vpeople. Think about it.
-P-

I REALLY believe in the strength of reducing behaviors to formulas(or rules), but, alas, I am way too occupied in trying to dig the tunnel to the light of an opperational emotion context engine.

I would like to say though, that humor should most definately NOT be used as a judge of intelligence and sentience since my kids are "apparently" sentient and have the most horrid senses of humor.

Perhaps one of those books could be helpful around my household...

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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thenar
Curious Member



USA
69 Posts

Posted - Dec 17 2005 :  01:27:51  Show Profile  Visit thenar's Homepage
Hologenic...your personal sense of humor seems well intact.

-P-
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 17 2005 :  08:38:42  Show Profile
Bingo.

Who out there would like to take on the game. Whatcha offering up as a prize Peter?

Sorry but it is late and this is one heck of a fun idea.

Jim
quote:
Originally posted by thenar

As you know, I believe a sense of humor is very important part of making vpeople believable. In my book I talked about how we can script them to make humorous comments and that's important. But we need to be thinking about how we can program them with rules of good humor and wit so that they can come up with their own jokes. My tip is this. Think about how you could take only two or three rules and develop a humor engine that would create it's own jokes. One think I would do is look at using homonyms.

In another post I talk about programming your vperson to switch homonyms in meaningful ways. Let's say you build up a small database of interesting homonyms that can be exchanged to humorous effect. For example "Your anus" and "Uranus" There are many such pairs. And then when your vperson has an opportunity to us one of the pair, give him rules to determine if switching them will make sense and be funny. It can be done. It's kind of a challange. I think we aught to have a contest to see who can do the best job of it.

There are a number of good books on the structure and development of humor and wit. They can be converted to rules that can be programmed into your vpeople. Think about it.
-P-


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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thenar
Curious Member



USA
69 Posts

Posted - Dec 17 2005 :  17:01:11  Show Profile  Visit thenar's Homepage
Let's see, I have an unopened copy of the latest version of PhotoImpact which is like Photoshop...very sophisticated. I also have an unopened copy of PHotoshop CS. But that might not be incentivce enough in this particular forum.

-P-
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1455 Posts

Posted - Dec 17 2005 :  19:01:50  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage
I am thinking about taking on the game. But as a prize I would like an unopened bottle of beer.


Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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thenar
Curious Member



USA
69 Posts

Posted - Dec 17 2005 :  21:38:27  Show Profile  Visit thenar's Homepage
Oh my gosh...a beer all the way in Italy!!! I'll have to send you a Boulder Beer or some other very local beer that you could never find there.

-P-
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  02:42:53  Show Profile
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. A truly good pun/play-on-words needs to link two concepts, and that could be the stumbling block. If you were discussing general astronomy with someone who kept insisting on saying "your anus," it's not funny. If you were talking about black holes in space, then it would be amusing.

I thought a while ago about making a database of puns, which would link topics and both spellings of the homonyms. So an example entry would be:
space/astronomy/planets,"Uranus","your anus",effluent/hole/excretion
The V-Human would then need to identify that the topic "black hole" matches both "hole" and "astronomy".

But to make matters worse, you need a linking sentence that fits. "There's a black hole in the direction of Uranus" is funny, but "black holes emit no light, like Uranus" isn't that great, and this one is pointless: "If the sun imploded and became a black hole, everything would be gravitated inwards, including Jupiter, Uranus and Pluto." And I can't see a way of explaining the difference to a V-Human, except to point out the linking of concepts, which is something current technology isn't very good at doing.

Eye wood-n't bee particle-ewe-Harley imp-rest bye a V-Hue-man that mere-Lee reap-laced words with homonyms. (Translation: "I wouldn't be particularly impressed by a V-Human that merely replaced words with homonyms.") It's more tiresome than funny.

The possible partial exception is homonyms/puns on a topic, but even then only if there's at least three in the sentence. (One by itself is often called a "groaner," and most people discourage it. However if you can put three or more in a sentence, people get impressed and laugh in spite of themselves.) So if you're talking about animals, this sentence is acceptable: "I have baad gnus for ewe: the cost of that horse is too deer." (Translation: "I have some bad news for you: the cost of that horse is too dear.")

I hope these thoughts and techniques will be useful for anyone taking up the challenge! I remain sadly pessimistic - joking is most definitely an artform - no matter how scientifically you describe the construction of it, it still requires that vital ingredient missing in V-Humans of today: judgement.

Edited by - GrantNZ on Dec 18 2005 02:43:50
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  03:26:36  Show Profile
So joking requires that vital ingredient missing in V-Humans of today: judgement. Well, Grant my lad, have you considered the "Judgement Quotient" of a bunch of really bright folks spending all their spare (and plus time) struggling to construct something unreal so real that it will become real without their further intervention. And all of this in the face of University efforts, foundation efforts, industry efforts over 25 years that have been boorringly short of success. In addition, much of the effort is spurred on by a book written by some apparently intelligent guy who says the impossible isn't, or at least that making the impossible appear possible isn't impossible unless of course you don't try. And we are! trying at least. Now When I pour that through my judgement quotient calculator I come up with -- gad I hope its at least fun!

And who was it who said "Bad art is better than no art, unless he is drinking again."?

Jim

Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  04:23:23  Show Profile
Forgive my uncharacteristic pessimism, I won't do it again I certainly wasn't trying to halt the pioneering drive!!

I guess I was just expressing my frustration at how difficult "interesting" some of the issues are.

On another note, another pioneering soul once said that he likes to ask the opinions of all the most critical and pessimistic people he knows - not for reasons why it "can't be done," but in case there's a reason that he hasn't already considered. He'd listen, nod and smile, and go ahead and do it anyway

The difference here is that I butted in with a pessimistic attitude without being asked Sorry, won't happen again
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laackejim
Committed Member



USA
3274 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  05:19:09  Show Profile
Hold on there Grant. I can see where the confusion arises. I STILL do not use smilies as second nature and I just witnessed the very kind of misinterpretation that our VHUman faces with text input. Okay look at my message this way. I recognize the judgement limitation you mentioned. I created a Judgement quotient as a joke because judgement is context and person specific and only wrong in hindsight or from a third party's feeling. I Then make fun of our own collective will to achieve something that nobody else has been able to do although they tried. And I am proud of that attempt. Then I take on a comment from your note about humor being an art form and try to turn it into a pun of a kind. (Okay so I am no artist). and all of my attempts to pass on the pure fun and exercise I am experiencing working on something so complex with people who are just flat amazing -- all of that attempt misses because I gave no hint to the words that this was in fun.

OR --Hmmmm what if my humor is really that bad? Oh god, no wonder my wife doesn't laugh at my jokes.

I appologize (with two p's even). Now I begin to grasp the size of the task. Okay. I am not scared, just cautious.

Which reminds me. I am collecting a panel of judges for a class I am going to be teaching in the local highschool. THe class will be to design a bot for the school, brain, and 3d Hornet to do the talking. If there are enough students to mount a competition I would like to have a panel of really good people judge the results and pick a winner. Would you be on it? Nothing will happen before May sometime.



quote:
Originally posted by GrantNZ

Forgive my uncharacteristic pessimism, I won't do it again I certainly wasn't trying to halt the pioneering drive!!

I guess I was just expressing my frustration at how difficult "interesting" some of the issues are.

On another note, another pioneering soul once said that he likes to ask the opinions of all the most critical and pessimistic people he knows - not for reasons why it "can't be done," but in case there's a reason that he hasn't already considered. He'd listen, nod and smile, and go ahead and do it anyway

The difference here is that I butted in with a pessimistic attitude without being asked Sorry, won't happen again


Uncle Jim (e=mc2)
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  06:43:47  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
quote:
So joking requires that vital ingredient missing in V-Humans of today: judgement. Well, Grant my lad, have you considered the "Judgement Quotient" of a bunch of really bright folks spending all their spare (and plus time) struggling to construct something unreal so real that it will become real without their further intervention. And all of this in the face of University efforts, foundation efforts, industry efforts over 25 years that have been boorringly short of success. In addition, much of the effort is spurred on by a book written by some apparently intelligent guy who says the impossible isn't, or at least that making the impossible appear possible isn't impossible unless of course you don't try. And we are! trying at least. Now When I pour that through my judgement quotient calculator I come up with -- gad I hope its at least fun!

And who was it who said "Bad art is better than no art, unless he is drinking again."?


Well, I got your humor even without the emoticons.

I even called my wife in from the other room and read it to her, I thought it was so funny.

I especially enjoyed the fact that we are doing this in the face of 25 years of university, foundation, etc. efforts and still keeping at it.

BTW, you know how we are supposed to pick successfull role models and emulate their traits in order to suceed ourselves? Well, one of my MANY chosen role models is the musician, Eddie Rabbti because of on interview in which he stated that the odds of success in the music industry are phenominally AGAINST you, but he was unaware of that at the time. He was having fun doing what he was doing, and the sucess just came along as a bonus! Sounded pretty good to me so I've tried to emulate that trait.

John L>


HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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GrantNZ
Dedicated Member



New Zealand
2677 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  08:50:08  Show Profile
It was definitely funny I enjoyed it! And I understood the message about this being fun (and it is!), and that's why I believe it's best if I leave my pessimism at the door

No need to appologise, no offense taken

quote:
Which reminds me. I am collecting a panel of judges for a class I am going to be teaching in the local highschool. THe class will be to design a bot for the school, brain, and 3d Hornet to do the talking. If there are enough students to mount a competition I would like to have a panel of really good people judge the results and pick a winner. Would you be on it? Nothing will happen before May sometime.


I'd be honoured! I have to say though, I'm not too sure if I have enough judgement to be a good judge There are some far better qualified people around here than myself!
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hologenicman
Moderator



USA
3324 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  11:06:16  Show Profile  Visit hologenicman's Homepage
I nominate Peter!

John L>

HologenicMan
John A. Latimer
http://www.UniversalHologenics.com

"If the Human brain were so simple that we could understand it,
we would be so simple that we couldn't..."
-Emerson M Pugh-

Current project:http://www.vrconsulting.it/vhf/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=816&whichpage=1

DISCOVERY: The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.
GOAL: There's strength in simplicity.
NOTE: Goal not always achieved.
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vrossi
Forum Admin



Italy
1455 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  13:34:27  Show Profile  Visit vrossi's Homepage
To Grant and anybody else interested in this

quote:
I wouldn't be particularly impressed by a V-Human that merely replaced words with homonyms.") It's more tiresome than funny.


Remember that the WordNet database, available in Hal, is not only an encyclopedic dictionary, but also contains, for each words, the list of synonyms, antonyms, hyponyms, sisters, hypenyms and meronyms.

You can use it interactively, selecting Lexical Dictionary from the main menu, but you also have the corresponding functions you can use in VBScript. There are also other functions which allow you to determine if a certain word is a noun, adverb, etc, and a nice function which rephrase a sentence using synonyms:


Example:
Output = HalBrain.RewordSentence("My hamster has very long hair and is fuzzy.")
The variable Output will contain "My rodent has very long body covering and is hairy."

All these functions are described in the Ultra Hal Brain Editor Help.



PS: I'm sure you all know what is a synonym. I list the definition of the other terms which might not be so clear:

antonym
An antonym is a word that means the opposite of another given word. For example, "wet" and "dry" are antonyms of each other.

holonym
A holonym is a word that names the whole of which another word is a part. Consider the words "car" and "motor". As they relate to one another, "car" would be a holonym as it is a whole of which the "motor" is a part.

meronym
A meronym is a word that represents a part of a greater whole. Consider the words "car" and "motor". As they relate to one another, "motor" would be a meronym as it is a part of the car.

hypernym
A hypernym is word that has a more general meaning than a more specific, or specialized, word. Consider the words "cat" and "animal". As they relate to one another, the word "animal" would be considered a hypernym as it is the more generic of the two words with the word "cat" being a specific type of animal.

hyponym
A hyponym is word that has a more specific meaning than a more generalized word. Consider the words "cat" and "animal". As they relate to one another, the word "cat" would be considered a hyponym as it is the more specific of the two words as a cat is a specific type of animal.




Vittorio
virtualhumansforum.com
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thenar
Curious Member



USA
69 Posts

Posted - Dec 18 2005 :  18:43:09  Show Profile  Visit thenar's Homepage
My idea is that we develop a large database of concepts...on this time do it right <grin no offense anybody who's done it before> For example we descrive a black hole in as many standardized ways as we can. We also describe an anus as many ways as we can. It would not be difficult for a virtual human to notice the similarities and experiment with joke making. In fact, We could also notate humor potential for various concepts by noteing some possible links to other words. If we employ learning engines the vperson will learn many links that are potentially humorous and when a potential situation comes along, he can try to make a joke. We would then let him know if it's a good joke or a bad joke. and he/she can make note of that and ask why it's a bad joke. At first we'd need standardized ways of informing him why the joke was bad, what rules it violated or was it in bad taste...'course many good jokes ARE in bad taste.

-P-
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